【RAM回顾】艺术家访谈:摄影的失败与责任

2018-05-16 18:13 浏览:304 A+ | A-

编者按 | 当摄影作为一种经历,镜头作为艺术家目光及其主体性延伸时,摄影行为的“失败”反而成就了艺术家原本希望通过观看去探寻的意义。作品背后的动机被满足,形式上的“失败”也显得无足轻重了。2018年4月12日,上海外滩美术馆很荣幸地邀请到了艺术家马琳·于戈尼耶与上海外滩美术馆馆长、“行将消退”展览策展人拉瑞斯·弗洛乔对谈,为观众分享艺术家的创作实践以及作品背后的故事。

    

【RAM回顾】艺术家访谈:摄影的失败与责任


    马琳·于戈尼耶(Marine Hugonnier)出生于法国,幼年曾在美国及北非居住,青少年时期回到了法国。她的父母相识于1968年的五月风暴中,所以从小到大她都成长在一个左翼知识分子的家庭环境中。在不同文化的不同国家旅居的经历让她不断面对“他者”的问题。


    马琳硕士攻读了哲学和艺术史。在攻读人类学博士学位的过程中,她把对人类学的研究方法的质疑延伸到自己的艺术创作中去:美国人类学家克利福德·格尔茨在其1988年的著作《工作与生活:作为作家的人类学者》中解构了“修辞策略”,质疑了人类学所谓科学的研究方法:民族志学者出于想要维持一个客观视角的目的而使用相机,但是这位学者在拍摄的时候,是否就已经带有其认知的先结构?这样的先结构,我们称之为成见、偏见,它们对于最终呈现的影响是否也应该被纳入考虑范围之内?这样的质疑对于影像创作也产生了深远的影响,让艺术家将以下因素纳入考量范围:文化框架、同时代的经典作品、观看方式将决定什么会出现在影像内。


    马琳认为,判断的产生、影像的制作过程与这些因素都紧密相关,所谓客观的目标也只是一种叙事的构建,仅仅传达了一种相对的真相,而这种真相是完全主观的。在讲座中她说道:“我创作的方法论就是去遥远的地方旅行,来提问影像制造、运镜可能产生的不同效果。我尝试通过世界来描绘影像,而不是通过影像来描绘世界;尝试体验影像,而不是通过影像来创造体验。”所以在三部曲作品中,艺术家讨论了军人的凝视、游客的凝视以及西方世界中构建凝视的基础。


    在本次讲座中,我们精选了艺术家谈论其作品的段落,与大家分享:



· 三部曲之阿里亚纳 ·


影片详述了艺术家 2002 年夏天的阿富汗之行。艺术家与同伴一起,前往阿富汗东北部希望俯拍潘杰希尔山谷却遭到当局禁止。她意识到,拍摄风景是某种形式的控制权。获许登上一座电视塔后,她选择了转开镜头,不去俯拍当地城市。影片探究了风景与历史的关系,展现了我们的感知无时无刻不受到政治和文化成见的影响。


Marine Hugonnier: The end of the film was a very conscious choice not to show the image. The voice describes what you see when you're there, but I don't make the image. Because I think that it's probably better to let you imagine what you could have seen if I had made the picture than actually showing it to you. I think that’s the point to say that an image is better; it's more effective when it actually goes beyond showing you something or giving you information. It's a much better position for the viewers. Because you're called in, your imagination is called into the picture.


马琳·于戈尼耶:在影片的结尾我特意选择黑屏,通过声音向观众描述那儿的场景,而没有放图片。因为我认为比起直接呈现拍摄下来的画面,不如让观众去想象如果我呈现出了这个画面,他们会看到什么,这样效果或许更好。我想这才是画面的真正意义,当画面不仅仅是让你直接看到某样东西或获取某种信息,才更加耐人寻味。对于观者来说,这才是更好的方式。因为你被邀请参与到了这个过程之中,你可以充分发挥想象力来勾勒出这个画面。


▲《阿里亚纳》,2003 年,16:9 高清彩色有声单频录像,18 分 36 秒。由山德雷托·雷·雷

《阿里亚纳》,2003 年,16:9 高清彩色有声单频录像,18 分 36 秒。由山德雷托·雷·雷包登戈基金会收藏。图片由上海外滩美术馆提供


Marine Hugonnier: I'd rather not see any difference between documentary and fiction. What I do know is that I don't know how to direct actors, which means that when you see actors in the film, you could sensibly say “Well, that’s pretty much the truth.”

But cinema is a trick. It's trickery. You could play all kinds of games. It's a box full of magic. What I like about cinema is that as a project of modern art, it is really a project of social emancipation. Cinema gives you an illusion which makes you believe that you have the possibility of being someone else than who you are.


马琳·于戈尼耶:我并不想把纪录片和虚构作品看作两回事。我只知道,我自己是不擅长导演的。也就是说,当你们看我影片中的那些角色时,你们可以很容易感受到“没错,现实就是如此。”


但是电影是一种把戏,有各种各样的玩法,就像是一个魔术盒子。我喜欢电影的原因就在于,作为一种现代艺术,电影真的代表了社会的解放。电影能营造一种幻象,让你相信除了自己本身,你还可以成为其他人。



· 三部曲之穿越亚马孙 ·


Marine Hugonnier: I read in a French newspaper Le Monde about the transcontinental project. And they were talking about the vanishing point, because the transcontinental highway was supposed to cross literally the entire continent from east to west to connect the two oceans, the Atlantic and the Pacific.


马琳·于戈尼耶:我在法国的《世界报》中看到了这个横跨大陆的项目。文章中提及了消失点,因为这条高速公路原本设计为从东到西横跨整个南美洲大陆,东至大西洋,西至太平洋。


The government at the time moved a huge amount of people to build this road, but it was a complete failure. Half the project was made. Then the project was stopped. And I read about the idea that there was a meeting point where this highway ended in the forest and was left unfinished. And I still have this fantasy of finding this point where the project was just stopped. The contradiction of the two is all about rationality, line, symmetry, grid, power, geography and war. And then you have chaos, irrationality and belief. When making this film, there was one day when I got off the road and met a person who told me about the belief that was embedded in the forest. That’s the only place where belief is grounded. Belief is not grounded in the ordered world of grid and perspective, but somewhere else. That’s why the camera went into the forest. I'm still longing for that point, but I didn’t find it.


当时政府在建造这条路的过程中投入了大量人力,但最后还是彻底失败了。项目只完成了一半,便停止了。我还了解到,公路和森林有一个交点,这个交点正是公路建造到一半便停止的地方。我仍然幻想能够找到这个点。这两者之间形成张力的原因就在于:一面是理性、线条、对称、坐标、力量、地理、战争等。然后是混沌、非理性和信仰。影片中,有一次当我离开公路时,我遇见了一个人,他跟我谈起了森林中蕴藏的信仰。那片森林是信仰唯一根植的地方,信仰并不是生长在一个以坐标格和透视法勾勒出的井井有条的世界里的,而是植根于另一片天地。这也就是为什么我要拍摄这片森林。我仍然对寻觅那个交点念念不忘,但拍摄过程中我并没有找到它。


▲《亚马逊之旅》,2006年,16:9高清彩色有声单频录像,23分52秒。由山德雷托·雷·雷包登戈基

《亚马逊之旅》,2006年,16:9高清彩色有声单频录像,23分52秒。由山德雷托·雷·雷包登戈基金会收藏。图片由上海外滩美术馆提供。



除了本次展出的作品,马琳还介绍了其他的系列创作:


· 拼贴系列作品 ·


▲Art for modern architecture, The Guardian Munich

Art for modern architecture, The Guardian Munich Olympics hostages (September 6 1972), paper clips onto vintagenewspaper front pages, 2010. 图片摘自艺术家个人网站:http://marinehugonnier.com/book#plate-64


Marine Hugonnier: ...I started making a collection of collages of vintage newspaper. The idea was also to tap into the imaginary landscape that we all commonly have of historic events. In fact what I was trying to do was to see how the same single event was actually reported in different ways. So you will see various points of view about the same event. If you change your position, sideways from your own position, you may have a chance to see things differently.


马琳·于戈尼耶:……我开始创作一组旧报纸拼贴的作品。目的是想要重新审视我们对历史性事件都会有的那种虚构的想象。实际上,我想看看同一个事件是如何以不同的方式报道出来的。所以对同一件事每个人都有自己独有的视角。如果你换一个角度,走出自己的视角,也许就会产生不同的看法。



· 摄影作品Towards Tomorrow ·


Marine Hugonnier: In 2001, I traveled all the way to the Bering Strait along the shore of Alaska. When you're there, you could see the other side, which is Russia. But in the middle of the Bering Strait, we have the International Date Line, which means that we're more in America. When you look across the sea into Russia, you cross what is called the International Date Line. So virtually, the other side is tomorrow.


马琳·于戈尼耶:2001 年我沿着阿拉斯加海岸来到白令海峡。在那里可以看到对面就是俄罗斯。但是国际日期变更线就被划在白令海峡中间。也就是说,我身处美国,而当我的视线跨越海峡,向对岸的俄罗斯看去时,我其实也跨越了国际日期变更线。所以,对面实际上是明天。


So I went there with an 8x10 camera, which makes negatives half the size of a piece of A4 sheet paper. And I made only very few pictures of this sight. It's really a step stone in my film career, because my works of photographs or images are always about something in the past. They always tell about something which is very far away. It's there. It's been there. Its image is a proof that it's been there. The image is evidence. It supposedly is evidence, right?


我是带着我的8x10 相机去那儿的,这相机拍出的照片底片大约是一半A4纸大小。我只拍了几张照片,这次的作品是我创作过程中非常重要的一个转折点。因为我的摄影作品大都是关于过去,呈现的往往是距今已有一定年头的东西。那些东西曾经实实在在存在过,照片就是它曾经存在过的证明。照片就是一种证据,不是吗?


▲Towards Tomorrow (International Date Line, Alaska

Towards Tomorrow (International Date Line, Alaska), Lambda print mounted on aluminium, 300 x 180 cm, 2001. 图片摘自艺术家个人网站:http://marinehugonnier.com/book#plate-22


But by going to this very particular point on the earth to photograph effectively what is tomorrow, I was trying to deconstruct and address the nature of images – they could be something else than merely showing you something in the past. They should be something else than evidence.


但是在这件作品中,我从地球上的这一特定地点拍摄“明天”。我想要做的就是解构,同时揭示照片的本质:它不仅可以带你领略过往,还能向你展现其他的东西。照片不应仅仅是“证据”这么简单。


▲讲座现场。图片由上海外滩美术馆提供。,【RAM回顾】艺术家访谈:摄影的失败与责任

讲座现场。图片由上海外滩美术馆提供。



· 语录 ·


An artist can perhaps be a photographer, at worst a soldier, a worker, a pilgrim, a  flâneur, an anthropologist, a journalist or a madman. But none would resume what the artist is or does. In fact, these points of view are the material of his work.

---Marine Hugonnier


艺术家也可以是一位摄影师,或者至少可以是一名士兵、工人、朝圣者、游荡者、人类学家、记者或者疯子。但所有身份都不能穷尽对艺术家的定义或他所做的事。其实,这些不同身份的视角是艺术家创作的素材。

——马琳·于戈尼耶

 


本回顾由潘旻编辑



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